Infelizmente, estou sem net em casa, e ontem estava postando de uma lan house (agora, no serviço, e correndo ). Fica difícil, sem tempo para entrar em detalhes, comentar melhor sobre esses casos. Mas vi que vc compreendeu por completo o que eu quis dizer. Faz tempo que li o artigo, mas guardo-o 'na memória' como referência.
Eu citei o artigo e indiquei o site justamente para que a discussão fosse enriquecida, ainda mais que sou mero consumidor das informações que degluto vorazmente e aos montes sobre esses assuntos.
Rafael, pelo mesmo motivo não dá para entrar muito em detalhes agora. Mas o resumo que o Luiz apresentou deve bastar para ter uma idéia.
Originalmente publicado por luiz monteiro: Rafael: Não entendi a questão levantada. Se refere aos fatos horripilantes, mencionados pelo Luciano? À inexperiência da tripulação no controle de danos? Ao incêndio? Ou a que?
A propósito, o Bunker Hill também dá uma bela montagem!
Fatos horripilantes, eu quis dizer é o que aconteceu com o Shokaku e o incêndio... Pois, pelo que os colegas falaram, a belonave foi desintegrada. Então é a isso que eu me refiro.
Mensagens: 2260 | Localização: Blumenau | Registrado: 08 February 2007
Originalmente publicado por luiz monteiro: Rafael: Não entendi a questão levantada. Se refere aos fatos horripilantes, mencionados pelo Luciano? À inexperiência da tripulação no controle de danos? Ao incêndio? Ou a que?
A propósito, o Bunker Hill também dá uma bela montagem!
Fatos horripilantes, eu quis dizer é o que aconteceu com o Shokaku e o incêndio... Pois, pelo que os colegas falaram, a belonave foi desintegrada. Então é a isso que eu me refiro.
Rafael,
Leia essa passagem do artigo da Combined Fleet:
THE DAMAGE
In the foregoing analysis we attempted to locate the likely impact points as indicated by the best evidence, but bear in mind the results must be regarded as hypothetical. However, the description of the aftermath and sinking that follows belongs to the realm of reported fact, and relates details of Shokaku's last hours beleived to be previously unpublished in English.
At 1120 the Shokaku's watch was preoccupied scanning the skies for enemy aircraft, and were later judged to not have been as mindful of danger from below as they should have been. Thus when the lookout sighted torpedoes bearing 60 degrees off the starboard bow and gave warning, the tracks were already very close and it was too late. Though Captain Matsubara ordered evasive action, the situation was beyond redemption. Three, possibly four, torpedoes (survivors disagree) struck the ship at eight second intervals. The torpedo hits, whether three or four, were devastating, but not immediately fatal.
Hits were recorded concentrated on the starboard side forward and amidships. One torpedo hit under and forward of the island, shattering and igniting an av-gas main that sent a fireball and burning spray bursting upwards in front of the bridge, burning and injuring several aviators relaxing before the island. Immediately some of the just-landed and fueling aircraft in the hangar exploded into flames, and the pressure of the detonation lifted the elevators 90 centimeters (nearly three feet). The wrecked lifts fell back into the wells, dumping hapless mechanics who had been standing on the forward lift into the inferno.
Shokaku had just recovered planes and was fueling others when the torpedoes struck; thus highly volatile av-gas was flowing through pipes in the vicinity of the impacts. Nothing could have been as catastrophic in timing. As many as nine aircraft were in the hangar, and the hangar was turned into chaos by the shocks. Gas spewed from ruptured aircraft tanks and caught fire, and ammunition on hoists began to explode, turning the hangar into a blast furnace. Exploding bombs and aircraft fuel tanks added to the conflagration and cut down men trying to fight the fire, so that pieces of "dismembered bodies lay everywhere about the deck".
With boiler rooms on the starboard side flooding quickly, the Shokaku at once lost speed, fell out of formation, and began to list rapidly to starboard. Reacting quickly, Captain Matsubara ordered port spaces counterflooded to correct the list. This was done, but too well, as damage control efforts overcompensated, and Shokaku flopped over into an opposite heel to port! [It should be noted that the magnitude of counterflooding necessary to accomplish this reverse heel to port most likely would have involved flooding of port-side machinery spaces, further complicating Shokaku's power situation.] At the same time the carrier was beginning to trim noticeably by the bow, for one of the torpedoes there had opened a large hole. [Our analysis revealed just such a hit and raised the distinct possibility that the bow was rent clean through, which could explain the marked head trim reported throughout]. The upshot was that before noon the Shokaku had become unnavigable and gone dead in the water, fires raging.
In the interim, the fire in the hangar had become an inferno, for all electric circuits had failed immediately following the hits. One of the torpedoes had struck close to the forward bomb magazines and apparently this had knocked out the generator and switchboard located in this very area. [Once again, the historical record gives striking confirmation of our reconstruction, which shows just such a hit]. When power failed it was impossible to power the pumps. The blaze made it impossible to reach or man the armored control booths for the fire mains in the hangar and thus there was no effective means to contain the mounting conflagration. In desperation the veteran damage control teams broke out portable extinguishers and even formed bucket brigades. However, such measures could hardly prevail against the flames, and the burning gasoline spewing from shattered pipes that "came down like burning rain on their heads". The ship was in extreme jeopardy.
Nonetheless, Shokaku's damage control was among the most experienced in Kido Butai, experience born of hard-trials, when they had saved Shokaku twice---first at the Battle of the Coral Sea, and then at Santa Cruz. Those lessons now came into play and by early afternoon there seemed cause for hope. Though the fire in the hangar still raged, those in the gas tanks had been extinguished by closing off all access in the surrounding spaces. There were not too many aircraft aboard, and there was a chance the fuel fires in the hangars could be doused if they could just be contained. The inadvertent list to port remained moderate, and helped balance the rising water in the starboard side. However, the pumps were not operable and the bow continued to settle. If power could be restored, there might be hope, but this seemed unlikely. Not only that, but the deadly and highly flammable vapor from the unrefined Tarakan fuel oil (now being widely used in extremis aboard Japanese warships as Japanese refineries had run dry due to shipping losses) and the ruptured gas tanks had begun to spread through the ship. The enclosed hangar had poor ventilation in the best of conditions, and many of the ventilators were now destroyed. Thus, even though damage control had made progress in isolating the main outbreaks of fire to forward and amidships, their efforts were nullified as leaking gas and ammunition periodically exploded.
In the meantime, the Shokaku's attacker had been weathering a rather ferocious depth charge attack from Lt. Comdr. Yokota Yasuteru's Urakaze. The first salvo of four exploded at the same time as Kossler's fourth torpedo, close and to port of the sub. Subsequently over the next three hours, the Cavalla counted 106 depth charges, 56 of which "were fairly close". The shocks started flooding in the hull induction and ventilation supply piping outboard, the QB and JK-C supersonice gear burned out, and all sound but JP disabled. But this damage was moderate, and by 1330 the depth charges began to slacken. Moreover, JP sound gear began to report "loud water noises" from the target. Evidently something was happening to the carrier. Indeed it was.
By 1330 the fires on Shokaku were growing much worse and flames began spouting from the flight deck and elevator wells and could be seen from the other ships. Moreover, the bow continued to subside into the sea, and the situation soon became hopeless as the forecastle came awash. Reluctantly Captain Matsubara bowed to the inevitable and gave word that all hands should come up on deck, and prepare to abandon ship. Thorough check was to be made that no one remained below to perish. Officers groped their way through burning and smoke-filled compartments, calling out names and looking for any one left behind. Several hundreds of the ship's company now gathered on the flight deck aft, where the fire had not yet reached, and assembled for roll call. Others energetically threw wreckage and rafts overboard to men who had been blown into the water, or leaped into the sea and swam to the floats themselves.
On the flight deck aft, the men waited in supernatural calm as the chiefs and officers made their head count, even though explosions continued to rock the ship and the flight deck was now starting to slant perceptibly downwards. In fact, at that very moment the seas were swallowing the forecastle and rising up to the level of the flight deck itself. As the bow settled, wreckage and bombs and burning planes in the hangar began to slide and bump forward. [B]It was then that total catastrophe, even greater than that already in progress, struck.
Either it was touched off by one of the fires, or was set off by tumbling as the ship nosed forward, but at 1408 an aerial bomb on the hangar deck forward exploded. Immediately the volatile gases that had been accumulating below were ignited, and the Shokaku was rent by an ominous grumble deep down inside. This was followed by a truly devastating cacophony of "four terrific explosions" followed by several smaller ones as the forward bomb and torpedo magazines were touched off. In a prolonged convulsion of three minutes the Shokaku literally began to blow apart at the seams.
The men gathered aft were caught completely off-guard--they had assumed they had several minutes to evacuate; in reality they now had only seconds. They were sent tumbling and sliding down the flight deck as Shokaku's shattered bow plunged under the waves. Water surged over and across the flight deck and poured in a torrent through the open No.1 elevator into the hangar. The inrush yanked the stricken carrier downward, causing her fantail to rear terrifyingly and suddenly into the sky.
Screaming and frantically trying to grab anything to hold onto, the mass of humanity on Shokaku's flight deck aft slid down the incline to their deaths and a "fiery hell" as they fell headlong into the open and blazing No.3 elevator into the cavernous inferno that had been the hangar. Survivors already in the water were horrified and the sight of the white-clad mass streaming down to incineration in the elevator pit would remain with them for the rest of their lives. The blazing carrier's stern continued to rise, till it was nearly vertical, and in a scene reminiscent of the sinking of the Titanic, then corkscrewed downwards with a "groaning roar" and collapsed into the deep, disappearing amid churning seas, fire and smoke. Bobbing among the wreckage littered waters the scattered patches of survivors began "to sing Shokaku's song with blood tears". The time was scarcely twelve past two----only two minutes had elapsed since the induced explosion. (Position: 12°00' N, 137°46' E)
The stunned Yahagi and Urakaze wasted little time in dashing forward among the mass of wreckage to the rescue. The sea was fairly calm, but the suddenness of the catastrophe precluded most chances for escape. The loss of life was appalling: fully 887 petty officers and men, and 376 men of Air Group 601; a total of 1,263 souls in all, had perished. Among the dead were some of the last of Kido Butai's great veterans, including Shokaku's Air Officer, Mitsueo Matsuda, the man who had led the bombing raids that subdued Wake Island. The death toll was keenly felt, for it was the worst to date for Kido Butai, having surpassed even the much-mourned loss of Kaga at Midway. However, by some miracle Captain Matsubara Hiroshi was among the 570 fortunate survivors rescued by light cruiser Yahagi and destroyer Urakaze. As the rescuers worked, small squalls gathered about, as if "adding their tears". In contrast to the human, the aircraft toll was small---only nine planes were listed by Mobile Fleet as having gone down with Shokaku. With the sinking of Shokaku, only her sister-carrier remained of the once proud Kido Butai that had attacked Pearl Harbor.
As for Shokaku's nemesis, the erstwhile Cavalla had started planing back up to periscope depth at 1352. By now the depth charges had almost stopped. Kossler suspected it was because the escorts had more to think about, for a "loud disturbance" could still "be heard by JP in direction of attack". But no one was prepared for the "four terrific explosions" heard thundering from the target's vicinity from 1408 to 1411. Their rumblings continued for many seconds, and Cavalla's company realized they were not depth charges or bombs, but explosions on the target. Anxious now to determine the situation, Cavalla reached periscope depth at 1421. However, to Kossler's surprise, nothing was in sight. Though admitting "visibility poor due to rain squalls all around", the sub's skipper was elated---he suspected the truth: the detonations had been the death rattle of their target carrier. He said as much to ComSubPac, when - after surfacing at 1851 and running out of the battle area - when he transmitted his attack report at 2125 and added, "believe that baby sank". Though a skeptical Spruance was to spend some anxious hours trying to find and destroy the "damaged Zuikaku " reported torpedoed, ComSubPac concurred with Kossler and credited the Cavalla with sinking a Shokaku-class carrier and subsequently bestowed the Combat Insignia Award for the feat.
Sem desmerecer outros casos famosos de incêndios em navios (como do Franklin e Bunker Hill acima citados) e afundamentos, com terrível perda de vidas, apenas "pincei" essa parte do texto para vc ter uma idéia do que quis dizer com "horripilante".
Abs, Luciano
Mensagens: 2329 | Localização: Goiânia - Goiás - Brasil | Registrado: 15 August 2003
Estou escrevendo do serviço, e estarei em Botucatu, portanto fora da base, de hoje a quarta-feira.
Portanto somente poderei responder mais tarde, muito embora creia que a discussão possa continuar sem mim. Em assim sendo, não se acanhem, e até a volta!
Putz! Observei, agora, que me esqueci de postar imagens do kit, na empolgação. Fica para a volta.
Como não achei a da caixa, vou repetir a do kit da Hasegawa (depois eu coloco a da Tamiya):
Casco e convés de voo:
São três "sprues":
Os aviões:
Os pesos:
A folha de decal (uma mais clara e outra mais escura, porém ambas ruins):
Ainda outra:
O PE (já parcialmente usado):
A máquina deu prego e não estou conseguindo tirar fotos (deve ser falha operacional. Depois eu vejo).
Pretendo usar, ainda, o set 511 (Japanese Naval Planes - Early Pacific War) e o 516 (Japanese Naval Planes - Late Pacific War), em função dos modelos que o TAIHO operava.
Do set 903 (US Submarine Gato Class and Japanese Submarine Chaser nº. 13) vou aproveitar o contorno do casco, para riscar a silhueta do USS ALBACORE.
Pretendo usar, ainda, o set 511 (Japanese Naval Planes - Early Pacific War) e o 516 (Japanese Naval Planes - Late Pacific War), em função dos modelos que o TAIHO operava.
Bom dia, Luiz.
Eu tenho um material específico tanto sobre a Batalha dos Mar das Filipinas quanto o Taiho propriamente. Ao que consta, ele embarcou o Grupo Aéreo 601 (dividido entre ele, Zuikaku e Shokaku), e esse Grupo estava equipado com A6M5 "Zeros", D4Y1/2 Suisey "Judy" (modelo com motor em linha) e B6N2 Tenzan "Jill", o que deixaria o modelos de aviões representados no set "Early" fora do contexto.
Os Grupos 602 (Junyo, Hiyo, e Zuiho) e 603 (Chitose, Chyioda e Riuho) estes sim embarcaram uma mistura de A6M5 (tanto na função básica de caça como também de caça-bombardeiro), D4Y, D3A2 "Val", B5N2 "Kate" e B6N2.
Vou confirmar à noite em casa e amanhã retorno com a informação precisa.
Abs, Luciano
Mensagens: 2329 | Localização: Goiânia - Goiás - Brasil | Registrado: 15 August 2003
Desculpe-me a demora. É que estou atrás de alguns PEs, para iniciar a montagem.
Muito obrigado pela dica. Se for como vc informa, do "Early" somente se aproveitará o D4Y2 ("JUDY") e, provavelmente, o ZERO (A6M2), que na escala 1/700 acho que não será muito diferente do A6M5. Aliás, creio que o molde seja igual, tanto no ZERO do "Early", quanto no "Late".
Acontece que eu tenho diversas caixas do "Early", que estavam em liquidação (paguei R$ 5,00 cada), justamente pensando em usar os VAL e os KATE, em algum projeto qualquer. Paciência, fica para uma próxima vez.
Quando vc. tiver a informação precisa, gostaria de conhece-la. Aliás, espero que vc. tenha resolvido o problema com a net em casa.
Eu tenho o volume 2 do "Enciclopedya of Warships - Taiho", da AJ Press - infelizmente o vol. 1 está fora de catálogo - que comecei desde meu último post a transcrever para postar aqui. Infelizmente, por diversos motivos ainda não terminei, ao menos a parte realmetne interessante para sua montagem.
Tenho primeiro que fazer uma ressalva, uma correção, dizendo que vc está correto - realmente, o Taiho embarcara, quando zarpou para a batalha, 3 Aichi D3A2 Vals, sem o restante do grupo formado pelos A6M Zeros, D4Y Judys e B6N Tenzans. Porém, conforme o livro da AJ Press, no dia 19 de junho, quando lançava seu aviões, não havia mais Vals operacionais, pois haviam sido destruídos num acidente ocorrido dias antes, que diminuíra de 65 para 59 o número de aeronaves disponíveis para a batalha.
Verei se consigo terminar a transcrição até o final desta semana e para aqui para todos.
Também é válido observar o que diz a Wikipédia sobre a curta carreira operacional do Taiho.
Tou com um Shokaku 1/700 pra montar...e é waterline, ou seja, vou ter que simular um mar...
Como funciona essa técnica do "Silicone"? É silicone de vedar? Se alguem puder indicar algum artigo, ou até mesmo explicar a esse pobre modelista que vos escreve...agradeço =D
Mensagens: 252 | Localização: Guaratinguetá-SP | Registrado: 28 September 2005
Olá, pederoda! Desculpe-me o atraso na resposta, mas é que tenho andado meio ocupado e sem tempo (mas pretendo terminar a tempo).
Estou, no momento tentando melhorar a apresentação do "display", com a colocação de vitrine de acrílico e acabamento nas laterais. No kit, propriamente, ainda não mexi (tenho dúvidas com relação a cores e estou aguardando o pessoal definir, para copiar).
Também fui atrás de PEs, mas os achei uma coisa de louco, muito pequenos, como por exemplo este set da Eduard "IJN figures 1/700":
O Rogério "Rato" Marczak (http://www.ratomodeling.com/) ensina que as figuras humanas devem receber uma demão de cola branca, para dar volume e não ficarem tão chapadas. Mas mesmo assim, ainda acho muito pequeno (creio que preciso trocar uma idéia com o paulors, para aprender o negócio).
É isso aí, vai devagar, mas vai!
Olá Alex Takeo! Seja bem vindo a bordo! Na minha modesta opinião, embora neste GB tenha gente muito boa, o mar de silicone é a melhor representação que conheço.
Com relação ao silicone, é esse mesmo, o de vedar (claro que a quantidade vai depender do tamanho da base).
Vou reproduzir o texto que passei recentemente a outro colega, sendo que a técnica, muito fácil, aprendi em um site alemão, observando as figuras, já que nada entendo da língua. A coisa funcionou assim:
Usei uma tira de plástico (tipo plasticard bem fino, que envolve as tortas da Sadia, acho que era Miss Daisy) e risquei o casco, a lápis.
Recortei o desenho e prendi o contorno de plástico em um pedaço de compensado (com fita durex, por baixo).
Comecei a pintar o compensado de azul, usando corante e tinta latex (aquelas de parede), variando o tom (lambuza o pincel no corante e depois na tinta, sem misturar). Cuidado somente para não ficar muito escuro (voce perceberá a variação de cores). Dos lados do casco colado, faça os "bigodes" da proa e rastro das laterais e popa, em cor branca.
Seca a tinta, use silicone (pode ser daqueles bem baratos). Claro que a quantidade vai depender do tamanho do "mar" que será demonstrado. Aperte a bisnaga ou cartucho sobre o compensado, e vá espalhando com a colher (pode ser outro objeto como espátula), inclusive sobre o contorno colado.
Após feito o alisamento, voce pode "puxar" o silicone, encostando a colher sobre ele e levantando-a (ficará a impressão de mar revolto - é só experimentar que voce sentirá como é). Aproveite o silicone ainda mole para "picá-lo" com um palito, no rastro da popa (o efeito é interessante e aprendi em algum outro lugar que não me lembro).
Seco o silicone, recorte o contorno com a lâmina, retirando o molde do navio (no seu caso o Shokaku) e, voi-lá, é só colocar o barco no lugar (na escala 1:700 achei que fica muito bom o efeito).
Depois, fica a seu critério, fazer a espuma em tinta branca, pintando o cimo das "ondas" ou o rastro do barco.
Achei a técnica simples, rápida e com efeito bastante convincente.
Não tou duvidando da tua técnica (longe disso), mas provavelmente vou ver se descolo um destroyerzinho 1/700 ou algo 1/1200 pra testar primeiro... Eu usava uma técnica não tão boa, mas o resultado ao menos foi convincente (O ruim é que dá uma certa mão de obra), era a seguinte: Pega-se uma moldura e a base dela, certo? Então você amarrota uma folha de aluminio, e cola sobre essa base. Após isso, você "pinta" com gesso líquido e depois, quando seco, você faz as ondas adicionais mais o rastro de espuma do navio com massa plástica (Não, não é putty não, é massa plástica mesmo!), e mais uma camada do gesso líquido. Após os gessos líquidos, eu pintava com diferentes tons de azul e verde esmeralda, no pincelzão mesmo, sem muita frescura. (Eram tíntas p/quadros, porém acrílicas). A espuma era feita com o mesmo tipo de tinta, de cor branco de titânio. Uma vez perdi uma dessas bases usando tinta a óleo, não secava! Depois fui ver que tinha que usar o secante, bem...ficou uma caca e refiz tudo. Ficou bom, pena não ter uma máquina decente aqui pra tirar a foto! Valeu pela dica!
Mensagens: 252 | Localização: Guaratinguetá-SP | Registrado: 28 September 2005
). Fica difícil, sem tempo para entrar em detalhes, comentar melhor sobre esses casos. Mas vi que vc compreendeu por completo o que eu quis dizer. Faz tempo que li o artigo, mas guardo-o 'na memória' como referência. 
